This week the district closed the fire station on 104th ave near 131st street. We got a "robocall" from chief Carr about this.

Today I filed a FOIA for salaries, resources spent on overtime, and the budgets for the last five years, or since the last balanced budget.

I also filed the FOIA for the conditin reports on the equipment they want to replace for over a million dollars.

We need facts regarding the root causes of this problem; is it increasing salaries and benefits beyond the revenue increases?
I see several solutions here:

1) pass the referendum, bit only with an ironclad contract with the union that increased salary and benefit contributuions will not exceed the rate of increase of revenues (salary and benefit contributions would be static for the year, but a "bonus" would be paid proportionate to increased revenues) or

2) Disolve the district and consolidate with the North Palos FD which serves Palos Hills, Worth, and Hickory Hills. The annexation fo Worth into that system seemed to work well, and it could bring the labor rates into line with local communities.

Anyone intererested in helping with the financial analysis of the root cause of this financial crisis? I don't tthink we can coount on the Board or commissioners to be honest about this. I can't recall a single one coming out over the last referendum and admitting they approved salry and benefit increases that were unsustainable, unaffordable, and unfair to the community.

They should consolidate as it seems to be the best answer for Fire Departments.

The root causes of this problem are detailed in the union contract aritrators report found at http://www.state.il.us/ilrb/subsections/pdfs/ArbitrationAwards/Palos%20Fire%20Protection%20Dist%20&%20IAFF,%20S-MA-11-007.pdf

It seems that doubling staff between 2008-9 was a big part of the problem, as well as creating a salary schedule that was by far the highest amongst seven comparable districts selected by both the union and the district.

It seems that bad contract and hiring decisions by the Board led to this problem, and they need to "right size" staffing to 2008 levels, when 2 stations were able to be affordable to serve the community.

It's also very curious that captains and lieutenants are members of the union instead of "management".

It's time for the Board, and Palos Twp Supervisor Colleen Schumann who appointed them, to be held accountable for fixing the mess they caused without dumping the burden on the taxpayers.

Where I stand

If you don’t support the fire department your head is screwed on backwards.
I totally support anything these brave people need in order to protect ME and You.
In 1967 the North Palos Fire Protection District wanted a new ambulance they sent
requests to a thousand people asking for twenty five dollars to purchase and equip
it. My family sent a hundred bucks, the third person to benefit
from it was my grandmother who broke her hip in our Palos Hills home.
about ten years ago my brother was in a terrible accident on LaGrange road
one snowy morning The Palos EMT’s saved his life.
My folks have lived in Palos ,both the Hills and Park , for over a century. We know
how rural and isolated this community has been. Urbanization brings change.
we can no longer look to the heroic volunteer firefighters like Bob DeNovo or Hal
Carlson to carry the freight. Everybody’s broke that is a new reality. But being broke
is not the same as being a cheap slacker. Supporting the Fire Department is our civic duty.
The idea of combining departments is an intriguing idea worthy of study.
One thing I would like to know is how much we spent on providing service to
the Forest Preserve.

Bob Busch
Palos Park

Thanks for the great comments everyone. The fire district's finances will be a major topic for Patch in the coming weeks and months and we hope to bring you clarity on many of these issues.

To Bob Busch, I couldn't agree more! Supporting your local fire department IS a civic duty, however I'm not so sure the men and women of Palos Fire are as heroic and noble as Bob DeNovo or Hal Carlson. This is a different time indeed. I am interested to find out more about the salaries and other expenses the district maintains. How do they compare with Palos Heights? They also have 2 stations. What sort of staffing do they have compared to Palos Park's department? Seems like any consolodation would be with Palos Heights, instead of North Palos. According to their boundries, they cover a big chunk of The Heights anyway. Thanks Bob for looking into their finances, and thanks Patch for bringing this to the forefront!

Bob, the question isn't about "supporting the fire department", it's about setting a limit to where the resources are available to protect the community while being fair to the firefighters and EMTs. The average salary in the district is about $77K (plus benefits and overtime). That ranked as the highest salary amongst ALL the comparable districts used in arbitration proposed by the union and the district. The lion's share of taxes and fees for EMS goes to salaries and benefits as it should, but there's a "tipping point" at which salaries and benefits become so disproportionately high that it puts the public at risk. I believe we've reached that point with the station closing. The question now is whether we work together with the district and union to develop a sustainable funding system, or we just increase taxes and allow the salaries and benefits to rise at a much faster rate than inflation and wind up putting the community at risk again.

I support the former, Bob, and hope you do too. It's the responsible thing to do.

Just write the check.
There is a balance between cost and value which has been ignored
in this discussion .In 2006 my little corner of the world tied into the
Palos Park water and sewer system. My house insurance went down.
while my taxes went up because my property is now worth more and we
are through with jugs forever. That seems to be the price of progress.
We get what we pay for .If our firefighters are well paid ,good for them.
if they formed a union perhaps they had a reason . I have no idea what staffing
levels are, as long as they show up if I need them the cost will be the least of my
problems .

Bob Busch
Palos Park

The fire department budget is published at Thomas Courtney's web site:
http://palosfire.org/2010-2011%20Budget%20-%20Signed%20Copy.pdf

It shows property tax income of $4.3 million for FY ending April 2011. Ambulance fees and miscellany resulted in an additional $0.9 million, summing up to a total of $5.2 million in revenue for 2011. With the $1.9 million tax referendum, this would increase to $7.1 million annually.

Full time wages for Fire Protection= $1.25 million
Health Insurance for Fire Protection= .23
Full time wages Ambulance Prot = 1.25
Health Insurance Ambulance Prot = 0.23
Full time wages Rescue Prot = 0.25
Healt Insurance Rescue Prot = 0.02
PENSION CONTRIBUTION=0.600
==============================
Total compensation & benefits =$3.83 million
28 full time firefighters= $136,000 per man

Any comments or corrections are welcome.

Jim

I believe what the referendum should come down to is fairness and sustainability. If we raise the tax rate, will the union relent and keep increases proportional to revenue increases? Will they be willing to limit raises and benefits to allow the community to maintain 2008 levels of service and fees?

Since 2/3s of the budget is for ambulance service, the district is actually an emergency medical service that occasionally puts out fires rather than a fire department that occasionally provides emergency medical services.

If the district and union can't control those costs, I think we need to seriously consider outsourcing.

Before I can support a referendum, I need to see a sustainable, affordable plan that shows our cost metrics and salaries are fair for the quality provided, and provides a roadmap and union concurrence from the union to limit increases in raises (including "steps"), benefits and staffing to CPI or 5%, whichever is less.

Without that plan and agreement, we're just throwing more tax dollars on the table for plunder without commnity benefit.

Can anybody tell us how many house fires there are in Palos Fire District? There must be some garage fires, and kitchen fires,,,,,Any whole house fires? Is ten men the right number for this type of fire?

JIm
.

Unions

Why do some people think unions are the source of all evil?
that idea seems to permeate the discussion of some of my fellow bloggers.
the real focus of this discussion should be the health and safety
of our community not the firefighters union. I feel safe knowing our
personal are the best. If being part of a union bothers some people
stop the EMT’s at your door and only let non union people help you.
Out sourcing will not work here, in my opinion, because of the unique situation
of our road grid.

Thanks for the informed discussion that is going on here. We will be tackling all these issues in the coming weeks and months. If you ever have any more questions that you would like answered feel free to send them to me at Daniell@patch.com and I will incorporate them into our work.

7 calls per day amounts to 3.5 calls per fire station per 24-hour day. That's about one call every 7 hours. Is that right?

Jim

Calls

I do not think we can apply an average to fire calls. Like some
people have already written just what constitutes a “Call”. Also if we are
like the rest of the world emergencies are random by nature. I personally
saw three accidents in a two hour period on LaGrange road , and that was
on a sunny day. It would be better to analyze the frequency of calls then
plan for their eventually, than to predict how many came per shift.

Chief Carr is attempting to staff two fire stations at a strength of 5 -men each, or 10 men total.

This is impossible to achieve with 27 FT FF's and 1 chief.

For example, each man can work 5 days a week, for 8 hours a day, or 40 hours per week. If you allow 4 weeks vacation, that's only 1920 hours per year, for a FT FF.

To staff one position for 8 hours requires 2920 hours per year of staffing. It takes about 1.5 FT equivalent FF to staff one position, because of vacation and weekends off. It requires 46 men to staff two stations at a rate of 10 men per shift, or 30 men per day.

There are only 27 FT FF's in Palos FPD, so Chief Carr is trying to stretch them over 46 men's work load. That's impossible, and leads to to a mountain of overtime costs.

Jim

Dear Jim
I believe most firefighters work a unique schedule. Twenty –four hours on duty
and forty-eight hours off duty. That works out to forty –eight hours of work every week.
Overtime in that case results in more than eight hours.

The unique schedule actually averages to 56 hours a week (48/48/72) over three weeks, repeated. Overtime is paid after 53 hours, compared to most others at 40.

Mr.Hianik

thank you for the clarification .

Fuzzy Math

Eight hour shifts are cost prohibitive as has been shown repeatedly
over the years. Using a hypothetical firehouse with a truck, an engine
And an ambulance a reasonable staffing would be six firefighters three
For the truck three for the engine and two emt’s for the ambulance
Plus one officer for a total of nine people per shift.
Under current twenty four shifts these nine people are on duty.
Under a eight hour shift the same firehouse would require twenty seven people
for the same twenty four hour protection. True under both plans we need the same
twenty seven people, but efficiency is best served by a long shift.
Using three eight hour shifts would mean three changes per day.
Add vacations, sickness, traffic, weather, and a twenty hour shift
Has proven far superior.

Bob:
In a 24 hour shift, you have 8 hours sleep and 2 hours for meals, leaving actual work hours of about 14 hours which should be paid.

With 2-12 hour shifts, you have 2 hours for meals which allows the firefighters to sleep at home in their own beds and you pay for 10 hours per day. This leaves the firefighters fresh and better able to do their services during their shift. In an emergency where more than an 8 man crew is needed for backup, either part timers or FFs who want some OT can be used, as they would be to cover for vacations.There are 14 12 hour shifts per week, so with each firefighter working 40 hours, exclusive of meals, that's 4 shifts per week. that comes to 3.5 crews, 3 effectively full time and .5 part time. With a seven man crew (3 for fire truck and two ambulances, one at station 1 and one at station 2), this would require 21 full time firefighters and 3-4 part time.
The district pays for 40 hours rather than 56, firiefighters get more time with their families and are less fatigued, salary and benefit costs go WAY down, and the community gets full district coverage for EMS services on a short timing basis and full coverage for fire protection within 5 mintues of their home.

Please explain to me why paying for 56 hours per week (3 hours OT) having 8 man shifts for 24 hours each where firefighters are fatigued and less than 100%, and paying them to sleep at the station instead of their homes is superior to that?

I think it is helpful to look at the community supporting the Fire District. Here is what Trulia, the real estate web site, has to say about the three communities in the Palos Fire District:
Palos Park Orland Park Palos Heights
Household income----------$78,450 $67,574 $69,907
Median home sale price--$322,500 $219,000 $215,000

If firemen are earning $132,000 per year, they are much wealthier than the taxpayers.

Jim

Jim

Duty
The people who seem bent on minute managing a firefighter’s day need
to realize the difference between working and being on duty.
A person works a set amount of time for a set amount of money. Then
They go about their business. Firefighters are always on duty. They get paid
For a set amount of time just like most people , but they must respond 24/7.
Firefighters know that, they also know the weight of the badge they carry
And the oath they took to protect the community. According to the arbitrators
Report the average firefighter makes around $ 72,000 per year. That is for about
50 hours a week or 200 a month. It works out to a little over $ 30.00 per hour.

I think your numbers are off Bob. Check the report again.

The simple fact is that this is a bedroom community, and what the board and the union are doing, and have done, has put the community at risk.

I think it was an insult to the community for the unions and board to put together practices that led to the district not being able to meet its obligations to the community for EMS and fire suppression services.

There was a simple question that needed tio be asked when the contracts and budgets were being determined, "What is the most we can pay and still be able to maintain services to protect the community?"

That question was answered, and the union demanded more than could be sustaiined. The Board gave it to them despite having the highest salaries around, and the best benefits. If the tax increase would allow for the level of protection we've enjoyed, equipment made available as necessary and compensation and staffing controlled not to exceed a fair percentage of new revenues, I'd be supporting the referendum.

Unfortunately, no one valued the "duty" to the community to keep compensation at a sustainable level, so they can't be trusted to act differently if we raise taxes. It will just create a bigger pot to plunder.

We've more than done our part to pay for the best staff in the area. Now it's time for the union and board to "man up" and prove to us that this tax increase will create a sustainable protection service that they won't abuse as they have in the recent past.

When this happens, I'll be knocking on doors for them. If it doesn't happen, I'll be knocking on doors against the tax increase.

It's pretty much up to the union and board.

You are all looking at this from a Finincial standpoint. Try this your wife is having chest pains middle of the night. You call the fire department help is there in about 5-7 minutes. Now the Station closest to your home is closed the response is several minutes longer 7 -9 minutes. Want bet a few dollars on her survival I don't!

Dear Dan
Ahem

Bob
You are extremely uninformed.
You need to do some research in to the rules and regulations set forth by government agencies, ie NFPA, and read up on all of the standards that fire departments have to meet. You also need to understand that you know nothing at all about running a Fire Department and that the 24 on 48 off schedule is the only schedule that works effectively for Fire Departments Nation Wide. Study after Study has proven this time after time, and just about all full time fire departments across our country are set up like this. Do you seriously think that you know better then every fire chief in the Nation on how to manage a Fire Department. Also stop making things up and trying to pass them off as facts, nothing you have suggest on here has made any sense and most things are not ever possible. Please remember that you get what you pay for, that is true for the level of care you get from your local FD. Put it like this, If you were accused of a crime and you were going on trial, would you trust your fate to an Attorney who went to night school and practices law part time out of some stripe mall office, or would you go out and get the best Attorney you could afford for your "Life and Death" fight. The same is true for the fighters who are in the stations of your town. Theses men and woman are Educated, tested, tried and Proven Professionals. You can not replace them with just anybody and expect the same level of care.

Brad,
I am glad that there are other people out there who are willing to stand up and support their firefighters. There are problem at Palos Fire but they are by no means the fault of the firefighters. For some individuals to simply suggest replacing them or cutting their pay is ridicules. These men and woman have done noting wrong, the did not cause this crises, they are simply there to help the residents with their crises. If they were not "Public Servants" no one would feel they would have a right to simple say "To fix this problem just fire the firefighters and replace them with lower quality people" I wonder how Bob would feel if his place of employment decided to cut his salaries because the president wanted a larger profit. Don't you think it would be slightly unfair to punish them when they have done nothing wrong. And another thing "Bob" please don't try to get on here and speak about "Duty" and "Manning Up" it is clear that you know noting of either, and when you are speaking about individuals who are more then willing to lay down their lives to protect others you are Way Way out of your league.

Last Night

While not spectacular by Chicago standards it was our first real snow
and came at the worst time for evening rush hour. The sirens were
going almost continuity on La Grange Road .
Right now it is about six in the morning .Perhaps this would be a good
Time for our experts to go and determine how much sleep the firefighters
Got last night? Or the night of the real storm February 1-2 2011.
Think they got the average calls per shift? How about eight hours sleep?
Using my example of nine people per shift the personal who came on yesterday
are still at work after a rough night.
If we had three eight hour shifts twenty seven firefighters would have filtered
Through the night .Also assuming shift changes at 7am 3pm and 11pm.
Would have put two of these changes right in the middle of the storm.

Lisa, I'd be happy to put my knowledge and certifications regarding operations of fire detection, fire suppression and fire codes against yours any day of the week. I'm licensed as a professional engineer in four states, including Illinois, and have designed fireproofing for structures, and have been trained and certified in the design sprinkler systems (NFPA 13 and 13R), as well as NFPA 22, 25, and 30.

I was certified to perform fire protection permit application reviews for the City of Chicago (DCAP program).

I design and manage projects that handle materials that burn violently and are capable of explosion. EVERY project I work on involves working with local fire departments to establish safety procedures and design facilities to most protect the firefighters health and lives.

I've shown you mine, now you show me yours.

What are YOUR qualifications in professional firefighting and fire depratment management? From your ignorant and insulting diatribes, I expect it's very little.

Regarding pay cuts, I had to take one, along with everyone else in the company, of 4% in 2009 when we were being thrown into the Obama Depression. I didn't like it, but it was necessary for us to continue to provide our services, so we bit the bullet.

It wasn't a matter about "doing something wrong", it was a matter of resources not being available to maintain what needs to be done, just as is the case in the Palos Fire Department.

Lisa, I DEEPLY resent your ignorant insults of those part time fire fighters who risk their lives to protect us, just as much as the full time firefighters do. The Department trains them well, and makes all the resources available for them to be prepared to do their duty. They don't do it for a fat pension or far above average wages, they do it to serve the community. That you would choose to denigrate them this reflects poorly on you and your agrument.

By the way, why not come clean on your PERSONAL agenda here? Are you, or any member of your family, in a postion to personally profit from this tax increase? Give us your real nanme so that we can check it out!

"24 on 48 off schedule is the only schedule that works effectively for Fire Departments Nation Wide. Study after Study has proven this time after time, "

OK, Lisa, put up or shut up. You claim that "study after study" validates this. Give us two links and references to support this claim. Of course, they need to be from some independent source, not one by a union to promote a position in a contract issue.

Bob Busch, you just made my point for me! Had the crews been on 12 hour shifts (with one hour overlap between shifts, we wouldn't have had to make these dedicated professionals go 24 hours without sleep). Truck drivers, pilots and ALL other essential service providers are REQUIRED BY LAW to get certain amounts of off time in a 24 hour period. That we have perhaps the most critical safety providers exempt from this is abhorent to me.

If what you say is correct, there were EMTs and firefighters zooming around at high speeds under stressful conditions in terrible weather and traffic going 24 hours without sleep.

YOU may be happy about that, but I can't see how any other reasonable person who cares about safety would!

BOB, I do think that the Palos Fire do have call back people to come in at all times and help the crew with more calls. Also I do know for a fact by talking to a few firefighters from Palos Fire at last referendum that the firefighters have made a big financial cut or hold for some time now. They did this to help the fire department. I strongly think that this was due to mis manage of the funds by the chief and trustees ( who are in charge of the funds and give the YES or NO to things) not the men and if women of palos fire department.

"There are problem at Palos Fire but they are by no means the fault of the firefighters"

Lisa, you're probably ignorant about this, but the lion's share of the PPFD expenditures are for compensation.

Over the years, up until the firefighters were unionized, the district was solvent and provided high quality services. In fact, a healthy financial reserve was created to ensure that training and equipment was state of the art.

After unionization, compensation skyrocketed without commensurate effeciency or service. The salaries and benefits increased at such a rate that not only the 3-5% increases in revenues were exceeded, but the district had to drain equipment and capital reserves to pay for ever increasing wages and benefits. The "less powerful" part timer union membership was devastated to increase full time OT.

The firefighters KNEW that what they were asking for would put the people at risk and would be unsustainable, but they demanded it anyway.

I value firefighter and EMT services as much as you do. But to claim the firefighter union greed had nothing to do with this is inaccurate and dishonest.

Rumor has it that the board moved from a 5 person board to a 3 person board due to someone on the board of trustees given ( negative ) information to the residents of palos park last referendum about the tax increase. Now I have heard that they are back to a 5 person board. I thought they said they were reducing the number of board members to save some money and now they are back to a 5 person board. What is the reason for this ?

I am sure all of you will be interested to read this story that was just posted: http://patch.com/A-qhmZ The Orland Fire District Board president has expressed interest in merging with Palos. The post includes comments from Chief Carr.

who cares how much these guys make! they make just as much if not less than the surrounding towns. i dont think you should put a price on someone who is willing to risk his life for yours. when they come to your door r u going to ask them how much they make and if you think its too much are you going to send them away? lets hope your mansion doesnt burn down and you need to call 911 because what you will get is an underpaid part time firefighter that doesnt have the training or qualifications as the full time one that you laid off to save a couple bucks! at least he will be well rested!! why mess with the schedule that every other department uses! just because they dont go to many fires doesnt mean that they wont! we need to support our firefighters! anyone that votes against this referendum will be sorry the day they need to call 911!

24 on
. In my hypothetical fire station
of six firefighters, two emt’s and one officer per 24 hour shift, would be
better last night than a eight or even a twelve hour shift. those on duty yesterday
knew what was coming. The officer would get his men and equipment ready .
Our firefighters are smart people, and they had at least 12 hours notice.
Now in a 12 hour shift ,say 8am to 8pm one shift would be going home just
when conditions were at their worst. The new shift would have had to fight
their way to the fire station then hope the house was not on a run when they
arrived. That gives us eighteen people in a hurry to arrive then leave.
Since each shift uses the same equipment double staffing would make no sense.
Finally I like to think of our firefighters as reasonable people who will not
put anyone in warms way because of fatigue. They know how to operate the
equipment in any weather. If the 24 hour day were odorous why isn’t
their demonized union up in arms?

Bob, you still have not shown anyone on here that you know a single thing about running or managing a Fire Department. You need to stop your childish rants you are just embarrassing yourself and insulting firefighters everywhere.

Calm Down

Why would anyone write this?
” Lisa, obviously no reasonable argument or qualification will satisfy you. You're just a union goon and bully”.
Pretty strong words, even if she is nobody is accusing the author of being a corporate stooge .
I hope both of you will stop the personal attacks and address the problem.
Where is the PFPD going to get the money to operate?
Unions are a fact of life, even if some people do not like them. The American Labor
Movement is full of enough violence and hatred on both sides . Weather the union
goons were the cause or result of Pinkertons Mercenaries are a mute point here .

Here's and excerpt from the Chicago Tribune last May regaring reasonable staffing levels for fire departments:

"The study, released Friday, concluded that Chicago has one firefighter for every 637 residents. The average for the ten largest U.S. cities was one firefighter for every 922 residents."

It seems that for a "low incidence" district like Palos, a ratio of 1000 residents per FF is reasonable. That's "Full Time Equivalents". For our 23,000 population in the district, it seems about 23 FFs and EMTs is about right, as long as we can manage to have two ambulances and one fire truck available on first responder basis That's about 7, and it seems Chief Carr is right there with 8.

For those of you who are trying to make the case that firefighters should be getting "break the bank" salaries and benefits, the facts simply don't bear that out.

In fact, the fatality rate for firefighters ranks about 35th, behind virtually every construction trade, sanitation workers, and even REAL ESTATE MANAGERS!

It's likely that firefighters are at more risk of fatality from their off duty construction jobs than putting out fires!

Here's the link:

http://dangerous-jobs.findthedata.org/

BTW, the major reason for fatalities in fire fighting is NOT burns and collapsing buildings.

It's primarily firefighters, who probably shouldn't be on duty, dying of strokes and heart attacks from "overexertion".

The second biggest cause of death for firefighters is vehicle collisions while going out on a call. Could this be due to fatigue from 24 hour shifts?

Lisa: Bob is very capable of going on unsupported rants, I have heard them before but this is not one of them.
Sue: I very much care how much we pay "these guys". I having also been the "victim" of the economy, have had my household income cut by about 60%. I am barely hanging on to my house. An increase for the the Palos Fire Department is unthinkable until they get there house in order.
Bob Bush: I don't care it FF work 24/48 or standard shifts, there are people in better positions than I to determine the efficiency of it all, but what we are getting for our money right now is just WRONG.
There is no reason on earth that we would need to have the highest paid FF's and EMT's. There work load compared to, lets see; the city of Chicago, the city of Detroit, the city of New York, or maybe East LA; is a cake walk, maybe we should pay them accordingly.

Dear Clare
I do not know where this idea our FF are unjustly compensated came
From. If you look at one of the first entries you will note the average salary
For a FF is about $ 73,000 according to the report.
Reading the Chicago pay scale a FF there makes that after two years.
Everyone is broke, but I will try tomorrow to find out how much our
House insurance rates will climb if the PFPD ratings decline. Personally
I would like to see how much free protection we give to the Forest
Preserves

Then there is always Peace Village that probably uses more services than everyone else together, yet does not contribute!!!!

Fees
Does anyone know if the PFPD still charges for calls? This question
Is not a comment, ten years ago there was a fee, at least for ambulance
Service.

Correction
A Chicago FF starts at $ 49,900 and it takes them 54 months to make $ 74,600.
They top out at $ 89,484 after 30 years.

Pay scale
I am not sure but if you look at the third posting it gives a link to
The seventy five page arbitrators finding. That is where I got the
Numbers I have been using. If you look in http://palosfire.org
I think it might be listed.

http://www.iafflocal104.org/pics/Overpaid%20Firemen1.jpg

Try to handle that at any time in your life and deal with what we deal with

If you want a fair comparison, compare what these guys are doing once or twice every few days with an ER nurse who does it for 5-10 shifts per week. BTW THEY don't get paid for sleeping on their shift as Palos EMTs do! They also make a FRACTION of what Palos EMTs make for a MUCH more stressful job!

Look Again

I believe this pictures has two EMT’s ,and four firemen assisting. That is the
Manpower that goes on a run it is called ambulance assist .
Also FYI :
The median expected salary for a typical Nurse Practitioner in the United States is $90,380. This basic market pricing report was prepared using our Certified Compensation Professionals' analysis of survey data collected from thousands of HR departments at employers of all sizes, industries and geographies.
Source: HR Reported data a

Comforting to know out EMT’s keep the ER humming and not the morgue.

BTW, if you've ever been to an ER, it's VERY rare for six people to be hovering over a single patient where there's no severe bleeding or physical trauma. I have no doubt the FD suggests that four FFs be at a trauma site watching two EMTs provide emergency services. that's part of the problem at all government levels from streets and sanitation (3-4 man crews in Chicago vs 1-2 in private pick up) or the proliferation of non-teaching teachers and administrators in public education, but that'a a different discussion.

Emergency Rooms are a controlled and informed environment. Help is a literally seconds away. Firefighter/Paramedics have no idea what they are confronting until they walk in the door. It is essential to have a minimum of 4-5 people responding not only for their own safety, but for the patients as well. We pay them not only for what they do, but for what they might have to do! I have no problem compensating them for not only their family sacrifices, but the health sacrifices as well.

The ILRB arbitrator who mediated the most recent contract said:
"...the base salary in May 2008 increased by 27.9 percent for a starting firefighter, by 26.6 percent for a 1st year firefighter, by 25 percent for a 2nd year firefighter, by 23.9 percent for a 3rd year firefighter, and by 22.5 percent for a 4th year firefighter, over the comparable rates in effect during the 2007-08 year (UX 4, App. B). There is nothing in the record that explains why the parties agreed to these unusually large one-year increases in unit members’ base salaries.."

In addition to the 25% raises awarded in 2009, he mentioned the hiring surge. Of the 27 full-time FF's, 6 were hired in 2009, and 14 had been hired since 2006.

Because of the large raises, and the surge in full-time employees, the Fire District has suffered an operating deficit of about $600,000 per year, for the last 3 years, despite raising revenues (mainly property taxes) from $3.8 million in 2009 to $5.2 million in 2011.

Despite booming revenues(property taxes,) the Fire District is now asking for another $1.9 million per year. Revenues would exceed $7 million, for the 29 full-time employees. In my opinion, this sum will not end the large deficits. The more revenue the Fire Department has, the more it hires full-time employees and gives 25% raises.

Jim

Tonight is the Orland Fire Protection District meeting and the issue of consolidation should come up. We will have coverage in the site tomorrow. In the meantime check out this new post in the issue: http://patch.com/A-qxcb

What we pay in property taxes is determined by our individual assessments
I did a little research and found these interesting facts from the county clerks
office here is the tax rates for some local fire protection districts in 2010.

Orland .879
Mokena .778
North Palos .701
Roberts Park .668
Palos Heights .583
Palos .557
Palos property owners are paying the lowest rate in the area for fire
protection. A fact we should consider when looking at consolidation.
Those pundits of smaller tax bills need to take notice that sometimes
Things are not as bad as they seem

Thanks Bob B. some people have a brain and not just here to cause problems.

michael, if you "had a brain" you'd realize that tax RATES are not a good measure of relative tax BURDEN on a community, nor a measure of what is "fair" to pay for fire and EMS services.

For example, a community with well spaced housing with low population density, few main truck routes, and little commercial or industrial development SHOULD have lower tax rates than a close packed, heavily commercial industrial with interstates and major routes.

Bob Bs point about annexing Palos at the Orland tax rate being a HORRIBLE idea is well taken, and I strongly agree with him on that.

If you're trying to make the case, however, that our tax rates SHOULD be higher without consideration of the fire protection and EMS services needed by the community. the trends in cost increases for lower service levels and some truly unconscionable raises and staffing increases given by the Board after 2008 (during the roughest financial times in generations), I'd have to say that anyone "with a brain" would have to strongly disagree with you.

That really wasn't the point you were trying to make, was it, michael?

BTW, if this refendum passes, the PFD tax rate would only be exceeded by the corrupt, abusive and overpriced Orland district. For our community, that CERTAINLY isn't justified. BTW are you firefighter or related to one?

Civil
Can we please keep this civil? No use calling names or
expressing opinions about each other.
Has anyone heard the size of the proposed tax rate increase?

For the last 10 years, the population served by Palos Fire PD has remained at 23,000 people, according to the PFPD web site. Here is the payroll over the last 10 years, as published in online filings with the Cook County Assessor:

2004-$1.06 million
2005- 1.13
2006-1.18
2007-1.40
2008-1.52
2009-2.17
2010-2.16

These figures are salaries, not salary + benefits. There are presently 29 FT firefighters, including the chief and the admin assistant. There are no part-timers anymore.

Jim

In the meantime while you guys are solving the worlds problems...please go to www.rescueremodel.com and vote for the Ikea Kitchen remodel. Remember vote early and often or at least once a day it closes at the end of Feb. One less thing you will have to pay for!

Jim, great info. The data you provided shows that to avoid a financial crisis the PFD needed to have a blend of PT and FT as we did in 2008, and manage raises to be a little bit above the CPI. That was the responsible thing to do, and Kevin McCurrie and the rest of the board made a HUGE mistake. This data shows complete incompetence and irresponsibility on the part of the board.One wishes we had an active press at the time that would have revealed this, rather than just a bunch of citizen bloggers having to discover this on the Patch..
I think we should bring this data out and make it public and DEMAND the resignation of every PFD board member who approved this destruction of the district.
That McCurrie censured Randy Quinn and asked for his resignation after what HE did to the district is the ultimate Chutzpah!

Jim

Excellent job of research could you provide the link I would like to
compare Palos salaries with our neighbors. Wouldn’t the addition
of full time personal explain some of the salary increase?

Hi people,

I think journalists at Palos Patch update their stories as new facts emerge, so I think the details we have uncovered and blogged about here will see publication soon. I noticed the Patch calls the referendum a " $1.9 million referendum", instead of a "25 cent" referendum. I thought the description of 25 cents was deceptive practice, and it occurred at another newspaper. It is very generous of the Patch to provide citizens with a forum to express opinions.

Palos FPD budget for 2011 lists payroll on page 49 of the pdf file at Cook County Treasurer.

http://www.cookcountytreasurer.com/taxingdistrictsearch.aspx

Jim

Palos Fire has over hired and over spent. The union has offered no concessions after receiving a very generous raise. They do not need the man power they currently have on staff. Remember they run approximately 1 fire a month at best per their chief.

The scare tactics of closing a fire station will no longer work with the public. The chief should be immediately fired and hire a new chief who knows how to properly run and staff a suburban fire department. It is ludicrous to close station 2 down when their manpower goes down to 9. That is right I said 9. They are using the scare tactic of closing down station 2 in order to protect their very lucrative high paying jobs with a very generous pension. Look at the amount of calls neighboring towns run with much less manpower. No one is dying their. Why can they do it and Palos fire can not?

Here is an idea to lessen the work load and help lower their debt. Have Palos Heights take over and cover all areas of Palos Heights that Palos covers. Have Orland Park fire take over and cover all of the areas that are in Orland Park and covered by Palos. This will shrink their response area and thus they would not need to staff 2 fire stations. They would also not need all of the current staff. The Palos fire union has to understand they need to cut back just like everyone else has in these trying times.

The Palos FPD is not over staffed, Nine firefighters per house
is not featherbedding. It takes that many people to man the equipment
which is why there are there in the first place.
When fire protection districts were established in the mid 50’s geographical
and political criteria were used to determine boundaries. Many of my uncles
farms in Palos Hills are closer to the old 123 rd street station than the North
Palos station. And since in those days there was a bridge at Kean Ave and 86th
Ave response time would have been faster. But Palos stopped at the canal.
political boundaries were used to set the West, South and Eastern range
of the district. It might be a good idea to re-examine these arbitrary lines
in light of current realities. But if cost is the reason bear in mind
Palos has the lowest rate in the area; Orland’s pays almost twice ours.

Presently Fire Department revenues are spent about 80% on compensation, and about 20% on physical plant. If the $1.9 million referendum passes, about 80% of that amount, or $1.52 million will be available for compensation. There are 28 full-time firefighters, and that will mean a $54,000 annual raise for each of them.

I do not believe the funds will be used to purchase a big firetruck.

Jim

I tend to agree that PFD is not grossly overstaffed. NFPA 1710 and other trade mags generally agree that you need 3-4 firefighters for each fire truck/ladder unit and two paramedics for each ambulance.

Manning two stations, each with and ambulance and fire truck, would put you into a 10-12 range.

I would be willing to pay for that, IF we really need two stations.

One of the larger problems here is that the most frequent and demanding users of PFD services, Peace Memorial village and some other non-profit retirement areas, aren't paying any real estate taxes.

It isn't fair, but it's the law.

I found out Friday that PFD is really abusing other local districts. Orland and North Palos supposedly make far more calls to Palos than we make to their districts.

I also found out that the pool of part time FFs has really dried up. Many were "moonlighting" from other FDs, but now their departments prohibit working, even part time for other districts. It's apparently and insurance thing.

It's beginning to seem that the most reasonable solution here is to sell bonds to address equipment replacement and maintenance needs, and a rate increase to handle staffing and cash reserve issues. We need to separate one time, short term needs from long term operational needs.

Right now, the referendum doesn't do that. It raises taxes for short term needs and long term needs through a permanent rate increase. The short term need funding doesn't end when its specifc purpose is satisfied, it keeps on neing levied and likley will either go to 25% staff raises again or the Board will find another way to waste it.

BTW, Chief Carr is not the bad guy. It's McCurrie and Adams who approved the 25% raises the district couldn't afford in 2008-9.

According to the ILRB, PFD is the highest paid amongst similar districts. We need some "memorandum of understanding" from the union if we pass a rate increases they'll limit any salary and benefit requests to CPI for at least 10 years. Without that commitment, or a new Board, we'll be right back where we are now in two years even if we pass the excessive ad poorly structured rate increase being sought in March.

We should reject that increase (which wouldn't be collected fro 18 months), restructure for a bond sale in November (which could provide for cash for the district within about a month) and determine a fair tax plan to meet long term staffing needs and fair CPI raises for staff.

The Board needs a "do over" on this, with a reasoned plan and commtiment for sustainability from the union.

Similar districts

Unless we define similar districts as those with one of the largest high schools
In the state plus at least two large grammar schools that term might be in error.
Throw in the previously mentioned old folks homes and one growing hospital.
Similar districts might be hard to find. Thankfully if a fire broke out at
any of those places everything from Chicago To Joliet would roll.
New Lenox would be similar to Palos, at least similar with like intuitions.
Remember we are paying the lowest rate in the area.

Bob Busch, the "similar" districts were chosen by both the union and District for comparable consideration by the Mediator last year.

I'm sure both took the factors you mentioned into account.

In arbitration comparable districts are based upon geographic area and EAV. Palos would not be a comparable for compensation to North Palos, Orland or Palos Heights in an arbitrators award. Yes when you compare apples to apples they are number one, but in a geographic region they are not.

To all:
There's a Palos Fire District Board meeting tonight (Tuesday, 2/7/2012) at the Palos Village Hall at 7 pm. I believe it will be televised.

If you've got anything to say to the Board that created this problem (McCurrie and friends), tonight woudl be a good time to bring it up.

How about decreasing their "stipends" from $3,000 per year to ONE dollar per year to show that they're willing to sacrifice for crating this mess, and perhaps a resignation from every Board member who voted for the 25% raises back in 2008 that caused this financial crisis?