To whoever maintains this site -
I accidentally clicked on "flag as inappropriate" because the page was still loading and I meant to click on something else! Lorraine's comment is not inappropriate, and please delete my flag and this/my comment.

What you talking about? You are skeptical of what website? The Patch? According to your bio, you write for the Patch.

No Shari, she means she is skeptical of the "Truth About Gardasil" website, not the Patch website.

Sorry. I am skeptical of the "Truth About Gardasil" website.

re: "investigators have found no evidence that any of the deaths were caused by the vaccine"
They don't even know what kind of evidence to look for. And I'm not sure how hard they're looking. There seems to be a tendancy towards denial and CYA rather than open exploration of adverse reactions.

Did you take this directly from the company website? Again, a curious post for someone who writes for the Patch.

Shari, I assume you're referring to my posts-- I did not take anything from the company website, although I did look at it. Interestingly, Gardasil's site doesn't say anything about anal cancer, but I think they should. If more people realized that HPVkills men, perhaps there would be more support for the vaccine.

I mean no disrespect to the author of this piece, who is my colleague, but as a regular reader of Patch, when I feel inclined to comment on a story, I do so.

There is often hoopla surrounding vaccines in which mysterious illnesses or deaths are blamed on them without proof (in the past few years, for example, rumors mounted that vaccines cause autism; such rumors have been debunked). HPV vaccines also have to contend with groups on the right who are against the vaccine because it is largely a promotion of women's sexual health (and women's sexual health and the right wing do not get along for whatever reason).

Of course, the choice to vaccinate children is that of the parents (and risk factors, like diabetes and oral contraceptives should be taken into account), but overall, vaccinating children against disease is generally the more responsible decision. Believing and acting on conspiracy theories is not.

Denise DV, sometimes vaccines do cause autism. That is not just a rumor, and that has not been debunked.

Some examples of documented cases of vaccine induced autism:

Bailey Banks
http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/BANKS_CASE.pdf

Hannah Poling
http://www.autismpedia.org/wiki/index.php?title=Etiology_of_Autism/Vaccine_Damage/CHILD_v._HHS

Elias Tembenis
http://www.rescuepost.com/files/lord-tembenis112910.pdf

83 more cases
http://digitalcommons.pace.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1681&context=pelr

Some discussion of the studies that supposedly debunk an autism-vaccine connection:
http://www.safeminds.org/research/library/SafeMinds%20Epidemiological%20Rebuttal.pdf

The initial study linking vaccines and autism found to be fraudulent http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c7452.full the medical journal that printed it later retracted it http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2810%2960175-4/fulltext and the study's author was found to have engaged in "serious professional misconduct" (he accepted 50,000 British pounds from the claimants in a court cast to find the results they wanted and also ordered unneeded lumbar punctures on children) www.gmc-uk.org/Wakefield_SPM_and_SANCTION.pdf_32595267.pdf

Paul Dailing repeats the talking points that we have heard over and over again in canned news reports and from those with vested interests in denying vaccine problems. For some other sides to the story see:
www.ageofautism.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id_AxZ3zHAc
http://www.wesupportandywakefield.com/ (see "Articles of Interest")
http://www.cryshame.org/

Dr. Wakefield and his coauthors -- including world renowned pediatric gastroenterologist John Walker-Smith -- did not create the concerns. They responded to the concerns of their patients and their patients' parents.

The 1998 Lancet paper was not fraudulent. It was a straightforward account medical evaluations, tests, and parental reports - a simple "case series" report calling for further research. You can read the paper here:
http://www.lifehealthchoices.com/images/lancetwakefield.pdf

It was already known that the measles vaccine can cause brain injury. See for example this 1997 article from Pediatric magazine:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/101/3/383.abstract
"The onset of neurologic signs or symptoms occurred with a nonrandom, statistically significant distribution of cases on days 8 and 9. No cases were identified after the administration of monovalent mumps or rubella vaccine.

"Conclusions. This clustering suggests that a causal relationship between measles vaccine and encephalopathy may exist as a rare complication of measles immunization."

Does all this mean that we should stop vaccinating against measles? No, and it is stupid that we who question vaccine safety are often labeled "anti-vax" as if all that modern medicine can offer is all-vacccines-as-they-are or no-vaccines. Any medical procedure must be evaluated to determine proper dosage, contraindications, who is susceptible to side effects, how to prevent and treat those side effects, and what are the true risks of the treatment in relation to the disease. Measles is a serious illness, but that doesn't mean that it is safe for all babies to receive two dozen vaccines by the age of two, or that it is safe to vaccinate against 7 diseases at the same time (e.g. MMR, DTaP, flu) or that all of the vaccines on the schedule are truly necessary at such a young age. It also does not mean that adverse reactions should simply be ignored and dismissed as coincidence without study. Mainstream medicine must develop a better understanding of how to identify and treat vaccine related health and neurological conditions.

Agreed, Azetbur.

I disagree. There is more to these stories than post hoc ergo propter hoc.

In addition, one of the problems with our vaccine program is that there is insufficient study on how to identify vaccine injuries. This is one of the shortcomings in the current understanding of vaccines. Barbara Loe Fisher said, “NVIC has been calling for basic science research into the biological mechanisms of vaccine injury and death for more than two decades. Without understanding how and why vaccines can cause brain and immune system dysfunction, there will be no way to develop pathological profiles to help scientifically confirm whether or not an individual has been injured or died from vaccination.”
http://www.nvic.org/NVIC-Vaccine-News/November-2008/Thursday,-November-20,-2008-Vaccine-Injury-Compens.aspx
It's not enough to just keep saying "Just a coincidence!" We need much more study of those who report vaccine injuries. There often seems to be an attitude of, "You have to prove that you are vaccine injured before we'll pay attention to you!" The burden of proof is unfairly placed on parents and children. We fund the CDC and FDA with our taxes so that they can do this kind of research. They need to figure out these vaccine problems.

Your previous post has a link to a rebuttal to 16 separate studies that found no link between vaccines and autism, including, if I'm reading this right, some involving the CDC. So it's sort of disingenuous to say the burden of proof is on parents and children. The CDC and other agencies and universities appear to continually be researching this. Whether or not people agree with the results of the 16 studies is a different matter, but there were 16 studies.

Paul Daling, much of the official studies seem more aimed at "CYA" than at actually uncovering information. In addition, the studies mentioned are epidemiological, not studies of individual children's medical history. As Dr. Bernadine Healy, former head of the NIH told CBS news that, "public health officials have intentionally avoided researching whether subsets of children are 'susceptible' to vaccine side effects - afraid the answer will scare the public... Healy said: 'There is a completely expressed concern that they don't want to pursue a hypothesis because that hypothesis could be damaging to the public health community at large by scaring people.' ... CBS News has learned the government has paid more than 1,300 brain injury claims in vaccine court since 1988, but is not studying those cases or tracking how many of them resulted in autism.

"The branch of the government that handles vaccine court told CBS News: 'Some children who have been compensated for vaccine injuries…may ultimately end up with autism or autistic symptoms, but we do not track cases on this basis.'"
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/12/cbsnews_investigates/main4086809.shtml

Interesting that we hear so much disparagement of Dr. Andrew Wakefield in the news, but hardly anything about the recent arrest of key researcher Poul Thorsen for wire fraud, money laundering, and allegedly absconding with over $1 million in research dollars. He was let go by his Danish employer Aarhus U because he failed to disclose that he held a full time position as professor at Emory U in Atlanta (closely affiliated with the CDC) at the same time as teaching full time at Aarhus. Dr. Thorsen was "principal investigator" for some of the biggest CDC-funded studies which purported to find no link between vaccines and autism.
http://www.justice.gov/usao/gan/press/2011/04-13-11.html
http://www.rescuepost.com/files/thorsen-aarhus.pdf
http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/03/frantic-cdcs-dr-diane-simpson-travels-the-world-to-find-dr-poul-thorsen.html

For interesting info on earlier studies see:
http://www.putchildrenfirst.org/index2.html

Also read Chapter 7 of the book, "Vaccine Epidemic" edited by Habakus and Holland.

Most of my comments are aimed at readers of this chain by filling in facts you omit.

You said it was just a rumor that the link had been debunked. One very prominent paper putting that link forward was very prominently debunked, by the very journal that published it. People need to know that those are the facts leading to what you consider a "rumor."

You also said the burden of proof has been put on the parents and that the CDC should get involved. But the CDC has been involved. You don't like their studies. You think their studies are poorly conducted and have bad science in them. That's fine. Free country and all, but at least mention that these studies exist.

I have no problem with your opinions on vaccines and autism. Heck, time and science might prove you right -- stranger things have happened. But tell the whole story or don't tell the story at all. Don't make it sound like no one is studying these things when you think the problem is really that they're studying it wrong. Don't dismiss something as a "rumor" without at least alluding to the facts behind the "rumor." It's just disingenuous and weakens your case.

Either way, I'm bowing out of this conversation (call it a win if you will) because I think this is detracting from the real debate here about Gardasil. An MMR vaccine some say causes autism in toddlers is different than an HPV vaccine that some say kills pre-teens. This forum is currently focusing on the former.

Paul, you are not reading carefully. I did not say that "it was just a rumor that the link had been debunked". Denise said that there are rumors that vaccines cause autism and that "such rumors have been debunked". I said, "Denise DV, sometimes vaccines do cause autism. That is not just a rumor, and that has not been debunked." I think that's all I said about rumors.

I agree that this article is not about Wakefield and the MMR. I was only responding to your and Denise's comments.

I'm definitely not "disingenuous". I say what I mean and mean what I say. I don't have time to tell the "whole story" but I do link to a lot of sites that tell a lot more of the story. I highly recommend David Kirby's book "Evidence of Harm" which also tells a lot more of the story.

Since there are roughly 100 viruses which can cause HPV and research hasn't been done to see if the other viruses will move in to replace the ones kicked out by the vaccines and the vaccines only cover about 4 out of the 100...I wouldn't get all excited about not worrying about HPV any time in the next 100 years or so.

HPV is a virus, not a disease, (the V in HPV stands for "virus") so it's not something that is "caused." HPVs cause cancers and warts

Right, Azetbur. Mayo Clinic online says that the body's immune system handles most HPVs on its own. These four strains are the worst of HPV.

I did research.

Sex is not immoral.

Condoms help prevent transmission, and regular pap tests help catch cervical cancer early. When caught early, cervical cancer is one of the most treatable types of cancer.

I'm so sorry for what you and your daughter have gone through, and I wish her continuing recovery! All the very best to you!

Reading Joelle's story at the SaneVax site reminded me of one of the most unfortunate results of mainstream medicine's & govt's refusal to acknowledge and study adverse reactions to vaccines. Joelle had a mild reaction to her first HPV vaccine, a worse illness following her second HPV vaccine, and a very serious long-term illness following her third dose. I have read similar stories of babies who had escalating reactions to the DPT vaccine until sustaining permanent brain damage after the third or fourth vaccine. I don't know, maybe for a lot of people three doses of HPV or DPT vaccine is OK, but shouldn't doctors be on the lookout for those individuals who cannot tolerate vaccines so well? Who may have sensitive immune or nervous systems, or are less able to detoxify the vaccine ingredients such as aluminum?

Something that struck me at the TruthAboutGardasil site was this:
"There is no known treatment to help these girls... The doctors, if they even admit the connection, have no idea how to help them. So they spend their days going from appointment to appointment, from specialist to specialist trying to find someone to help them. Many of these families have started looking for help outside of mainstream medicine, which in some cases, may bring minor relief. However, most insurance plans do not cover this type of treatment, and as a result, this route is out of reach for many girls."

This reminds me so much of what a lot of families who are affected by autism experience. Some are actually helped a lot by alternative practitioners. But mainstream medicine should be doing much more.

Instead of the response of, "No proof! Just a coincicence! Anecdotal! Diseases are dangerous! Keep vaccinating!" it would be so much better if the response were, "We have received x # of reports of xyz reactions and we are investigating them to better understand the exact mechanism of injury, why these particular individuals were susceptible, and how we can best treat their medical conditions."

Well, of course drug companies are greedy, but to say that vaccines don't work? Is there any sense in saying that? So, there are polio outbreaks, are there? And smallpox? Do you know lots of people with lockjaw? Do all your neighborhood pets have rabies?

Actually, Mindano, your science isn't quite right. What you're talking about is evolution. Viruses, of course, evolve. DNA viruses, like HPV, require hosts in which to evolve. This is why vaccinations performed en masse are successful--viruses (such as smallpox) don't have time enough to evolve before they are stopped. RNA viruses, such as the flu, have much trickier ways of getting past our immune system so we can be reinfected by the flu many, many times (it has to do with proteins and is too complicated to get into here, but if you're interested, I suggest Googling viral evolution. UCLA has a nice page about it.)

No, Denise, Mindano is NOT talking about evolution. The problem is something called serotype replacement. If a particular bacteria or virus is very commonly carried by members of a species, in this case human beings, mutual accommodation takes place. Most human beings can carry HPV of one flavor or another for some period of time and then clear the virus with no problem. Then another one hops on board and is cleared, and another. If, for some reason a person is unable to clear the virus it can turn into a real infection and start causing lesions and if the lesions aren't caught by a pap smear or other exam, cancer could be the eventual result. The vaccines prevent one or two or three or four of the varieties from sticking, at least in theory. Because there are dozens of other varieties, chances are that some were outcompeted in the past by the ones chosen for the vaccine. Will these varieties just sit there quietly or will the change in the ecosystem created by the vaccine allow a new virus to flourish?

It has happened with Prevnar 7 where a bug labeled 19A gradually emerged from the shadows and began to cause some really nasty illnesses. Prevnar 13 contains 19A so all is well until the next bug emerges from the shadows and Prevnar 21 is launched and on and on we go.

Serotype replacement can occur with viruses as well as with bacteria, so Deborah Kahn's comment is quite relevant.

I read your bio, Denise, and I found that we have some common ground. I totally agree with you about use of the Oxford comma.

In addition, I would never advise someone about whether to get a certain vaccine. Diseases have risks, and vaccines have risks. IMO it is an individual decision whether to be vaccinated with a certain vaccine, and whether to allow our children to receive a certain vaccine. You seem to respect that people will make their own decisions and think that "that's fine". More common ground.

But, I don't like your characterization of accounts of HPV vaccine injury as "urban legends or anecdotal evidence". This is a very strange aspect of today's vaccine debates. It is all too easy for those who don't have first hand experience to dismiss accounts of vaccine injury.

Lastly, I'm wondering about something. I may or may not post additional comments. If I don't, should I announce my departure as Denise and Paul did?